pandemonium
Our Wednesday International Yahoo Chat
(Every Week, Wednesday afternoon, on Yahoo,
starting at 2.00 PM, New York, at 2.00 PM. Venezuelan Time, at 8.00 PM, German Time.)
Jutta (Merida, Venezuela)
Scott (Florida, USA)
Franz (Merida, Venezuela)
Carl (Teaneck, USA)
Stella (Mainz, Germany)
Acting, Thinking, Thought -- Elucidating the Educative,
Educational Environment of our Science a n d Philosophy -- with special reference to "Racism".June 5, 2002.
PLEASE NOTE:
Take all the typographic errors as Pandemonium
Greetings, it would take hours and hours to edit this
particularmanuscript; it would absorb too much valuable
"time" to correct everything!
Hence, please, accept our apology! We'll check
the manuscript to avoid any possible errors that may
cause misunderstanding. Chats, by their very nature,
are not perfect scientifictreatises.)
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In future, until further notice,
regularly on Wednesdays,
sometimes, even on Sundays, we will have all
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Kindly download and install the latest
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******************************************************
Yahoo! Messenger: You are now logged into voice
conference - juttafranz-2450.
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.
SAYING: HI!
carlzim: Hi, Franz.
Yahoo! Messenger: missnaranjahit has joined
the conference.
carlzim: Hi, Stella.
Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has joined
the conference.
carlzim: Hi, Jutta.
jutta_schmitt2002: Hello all. Nice to see quite
a full house.
Carl, it's a pleasure to have you back with
us!!
carlzim: Where's Scott?
juttafranz: Hello Everybody!!!
carlzim: Hi, Franz.
missnaranjahit: Hello all!
jutta_schmitt2002: Hello Steeelllaaaaaa!
carlzim: Where's Scott?
missnaranjahit: Carl did you have birthday
yesterday?
missnaranjahit: Jutta HIIIIIIII!
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl - I lost my ICQ programme
and with
it the birthday reminder! When exactly is /
was your birthday?
carlzim: Great birthday, Stella.
juttafranz: Well, better late than never, we
all sing: HAPPY
BIRTH DAY!!!
carlzim: June 4, Jutta.
jutta_schmitt2002: HAPPY BELATED BIRTHDAY,
CARL!!!!!!
Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has joined
the
conference.
carlzim: Thanks, Franz&Jutta.
missnaranjahit: Happy Birthday Carl!!!!!!!!!!
I was not sure
about this! @}------------------
carlzim: Hi, Scott.
juttafranz: Hi Scott!!!
missnaranjahit: Hi Scott.
jutta_schmitt2002: You are welcome, Carl. Glad
you had a
nice day yesterday.
carlzim: Thanks, Stella.
juttafranz: Well, then, let's begin, with my
introduction.
jutta_schmitt2002: Hello Scott. Is that your
shadow or is it
you for real?
carlzim: Please proceed, Franz.
juttafranz: When, you are ready, send me some
cyber-smoke
signals!! Or bang those African jazz drums!!!
missnaranjahit: *smoke* ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
jutta_schmitt2002: * 0o0ooo0*
carlzim: Proceed, Franz.
jutta_schmitt2002: Please begin, Franz.
THE INTRODUCTION
juttafranz: CHAT NOTES of our International
Yahoo Chat",
JUNE 5, 2002.
TITLE: Acting, Thinking, Thought -- Elucidating
the
Educative, Educational Environment of our Scientific
a n d
Philosophical "Chat Notes".
by Franz J. T. Lee.
Copyright, For All Who Act a n d Think AND
Excel, 2002.
jutta_schmitt2002: Sounds good, Franz.
juttafranz: Well, there we go, here we think!!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Let's go for it.
juttafranz:
Folks, I sent you some introductory philosophic
notes, in various
parts already; they encompass a simple, general
approximation of our Science and Philosophy. They are precisely that what
they are, id est, they introduce, they approximate -- they don't want to convince
anybody, don't want to recruit or conscientize
any "masses"; any
genre of manipulation and indoctrination is
totally alien to them.
They are too fresh, new, authentic and original
for such Maquiavellian, Hobbesian and Orwellian social ulterior machinations.
jutta_schmitt2002: Fresh, approximating notes indeed, Franz.
juttafranz:
We are not going to discuss the notes-in-and-for-themselves,
rather
we'll spotlight their general application in
everyday life. In other
words, in the debate that will follow, we'll
compare how across the socialization process, the educational institutions
and social communication, we have been taught to think, that is, how we
generally think, argue and analyse, and we
will explain how our new science a n d philosophy suggests that thinking and
thought should be re-born ( = re-naissance), re-thought, re-vised and re-oriented.
missnaranjahit: Good setting for the chat Franz.
jutta_schmitt2002: I like that suggestion, Franz. Let's continue.
juttafranz: Yes, Stella, how "different", wie anders?
nonpositivism: A good beginning, yes.
juttafranz:
Although in a number of fields (space travel
and colonization,
quantum and ether physics, Tesla-technology,
nano-technology,
genetic engineering, multi-logic) formal logic
is obsolete and
basically can only be applied within a very
limited range of scientific
a n d philosophic endeavours, -- where it certainly
had and still has
some validity -- yet our current, global, social
superstructure --
religion, philosophy, law, ideology, thinking,
thought, ethics, culture
and tradition -- still operates fully, in all
walks of life, with archaic formal logical thinking. In fact, it can be said
that 6 billions today
still think in an "A=A" obsolete, ideological
style, just like
the ancient "aristocratic" and "democratic"
slave-owning Athenians,
... juttafranz: ... just like Plato and Aristotle.
jutta_schmitt2002: The social sciences
superstructure seems to
change somewhat slower than that of the natural
sciences, Franz,
because the latter ones are directly connected
to the production
process. - Please continue.
juttafranz: D'accord, Jutta. I agree.
jutta_schmitt2002: Hm.
juttafranz:
What they don't know, what has deliberately
not been taught to them,
is that scientifically and philosophically
the very Plato (Socratic
Dialogues) and Aristotle (doctrine of morphe
and hyle) were mutatis
mutandis excellent dialecticians, negating
their very own
formal-logical, superstructural, ideological
status quo.
juttafranz: Continuing ....
juttafranz:
Across the length, breadth, width and depth
of the globe, in the air,
on land, under the sea, in the heavens, in
general discussions, jokes,
gossips, fairy tales, lies, scientific essays,
philosophic treatises, friendly chats, in internet forums, in university classes,
in "home
truths", what do we witness? A formal-logical
666th Symphony of: ...
"I'm right", "You are wrong", "I agree", "I
disagree", and nothing more
-- never ever "I agree a n d I disagree", never
ever "I neither agree
nor disagree", "I'm neither right nor wrong".
We are Marcusian, unimensional, agreeing, agreeable, right, rightist creatures.
jutta_schmitt2002: Agreed, Franz.
missnaranjahit: hahahah Jutta, I did NOT want to say that now.
juttafranz: Comments, till here? Will continue ....
jutta_schmitt2002: Hahahahahaa, Stella. Whattamansay.
carlzim: Continue, Franz.
jutta_schmitt2002: Take your tomatoe now, Franz, and continue.
juttafranz: Hahaha .....
juttafranz: We think, analyse, investigate
strictly according to the
laws of Formal Logic. We operate with our "absolute
truths", with our "A's", with our being "right" summa cum laude. This is
the reason
why we disagree, when we are faced with a negation,
with a "negative attitude", this is why we think that "Non-A" is "wrong",
is "false".
Check our previous hundreds of chats, and investigate
this; we can
verify this with our very own scientific and
philosophic deliberations.
I say this in a Socratic dialectical way, to
assist us in our agonizing labour pain, in our heavy emancipatory naissance,
in our re-naissance.
jutta_schmitt2002: You certainly hit the nail onto its head, Franz. We know that by daily experience.
jutta_schmitt2002: Please continue, Franz.
jutta_schmitt2002: We'll comment later.
juttafranz: Yes, sometimes, without the
blink of an eye, we have to
state our own "home truths", but this won't
harm, we are "made of
sterner stuff", of "star-dust".
juttafranz:
Also, check out, how many times I said "I agree"
or "D'accord", and
when, if ever, I said: "I disagree" or "You
are wrong". Behind this "madness' of ours there is a stringent, strict, logical
method, which I tried to explain in the philosophic "Chat Notes" that I sent
to all of
you. I have called it the "Omnia Mea Mecum
Porto Principle, all that I know, whether I agree with it or not, I carry
with me, I chat and
debate with its totality.
jutta_schmitt2002: Doubtlessly, a "reasonable" principle, Franz.
juttafranz: D'accord! I agree!!
juttafranz:
There is nothing I would discard or discriminate,
because all
asseverations are ontic, ontological products
and real mental
reflections of earthly, historic reality. No
matter how absurd they may seem, de facto, they express perfectly well an
absurd, bizarre,
macabre, horrible, terrible, global fascism.
That's how a global, racist fascist "thinks" -- just listen to our "great
leaders".
nonpositivism: Question, folks: what's an "asseveration"?
jutta_schmitt2002: An assertion? Aseveración in Spanish.
juttafranz: Well, a deliberation.
juttafranz:
Just to learn, to understand, to rectify what
I have explained,
certainly would take ages -- because it means
to emancipate our
ways, means, methods and ends of thinking and
thought; to negate
and superate the lion's share of all our previous,
brilliant acts,
actions, ideas and thoughts. I only noted this
at the age of 50, and
it took me a decade to act, think and excel,
of, by and for myself --
and, surely, in all probability, until now,
I just achieved less that 1%
of what is to be done (Cosmos, and), and how
thought does exist
(Cosmos a n d Einai).
jutta_schmitt2002: I think it should be "assertion", Scott (?)
missnaranjahit: asseveration = declaration, affirmation - this is what Babylon-translator says....
juttafranz: A solemn deliberation, Scott.
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks for your Babelfish update, Stella.
juttafranz: A Solemn Declaration, Scott.
missnaranjahit: Franz, what do you exactely mean? please in German.
nonpositivism: Franz, your intellectual humility ("less than 1% of what is to be done") is refreshing in this age of shouting and polemics.
juttafranz: Cosmos, Scott, Affirmation!
juttafranz: Continuing ....
juttafranz: Totally agreed, Scott.
juttafranz:
The atrocious, mental damage done to billions
of innocent "coolies",
of learn-hungry "niggers", of mentally-starved
"latino" paupers and of
awe-stricken "white" lumpen-proletarians is
immense, is incalculable;
from Athens to Rome, to London, to Moscow,
to Peking, to Washington
D.C., this is the greatest historical, "democratic",
"revolutionary",
cardinal, capital crime of "civilized" homo
homini lupus against
humanity in toto. About this racist, nazi,
fascist Holocaust of the
Mind nobody complains; about this Education
for Barbarism not a
word in the Information Age, in the hail and
halo of American
Democracy.
juttafranz:
Many innocent educators, pedagogues and teachers
try and have tried
their utmost best to conscientize these godforlorn
"masses" in their
ghettoes, barrios and favelas, but, alas, their
very human, humane,
humanist minds are and were already infected
by the virulent, mortal,
fatal, lethal virus of Big Brother Newspeak.
juttafranz:
We could not know, not say all this, not see
all this, if we would not
have begun to learn to do things, to think,
and to excel -- really and
trulydemocratically -- all, of, by and for
ourselves. For these very reasons, our "Chats Notes" are written in the way
they are, in the
style that they exist, and in the manner how
they excel themselves.
jutta_schmitt2002: Globalized Bantu Education,
Franz: Each
according to their function in the production
process - if they have
none, why should they receive any "education"
at all ? (- Could also
be to their benefit, however, as, in this case,
official school does not
interfere in their real education...)
nonpositivism: Or Jutta as Mark Twain put
it, "Never let school
interfere with your education."
juttafranz: Yes, soon "Bin Laden - Bush Man" Education For Barbarism.
jutta_schmitt2002: Exactly, Scott.
juttafranz: Continuing ....
carlzim: Soon, Bin Laden is dead AND alive like Schroedinger's Cat.
juttafranz: D'accord, Carl.
juttafranz:
Across the millennia, wealthy, ruling class
mind and thought control,
mainly via monotheistic religions, agricultural
and industrial
productive ideology and fascist authoritarianism
and totalitarianism
have played havoc with the ontic, cognitive,
logical faculties of the "condemneed of the earth", of Victor Hugo's "Les
miserables",
converting a great part of them into useless
labour debris, wrecked flotsam and jetsam; and, of course,
have converted the largest part of the intelligentsia
-- including huge
sectors of the upper classes -- into specialized
CEO robots or technocratic zombies.
nonpositivism: [Haha, Carl I like that
one...I can just see the
posters=> Bin-Laden, Wanted: dead AND alive!]
carlzim: Jean Valjean and Inspector Javert were good guy=bad guy.
jutta_schmitt2002: Would be certainly something
new for a change,
Scott and Carl.
juttafranz: Well, folks, that's sufficient
for an introduction! Wall-Ivy,
get up, hic salta, let's all dance near the
new "Bastille"! That was
my intro. for today. You have the floor now.
THE DEBATE ENSUES ....
carlzim: Thanks, Jutta and Scott.
carlzim: Excellent intro, Franz. Thanks.
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks for your introduction, Franz.
carlzim: Folks: Knowledge=control. After
chat, take "The World
History Test:"
http://handydandy.virtualave.net/worldhistory.html
See what conventional education wants us to
know about world
history.
juttafranz: Jutta, any extending comments?
juttafranz: Most interesting, Carl.
missnaranjahit: Franz Thanks for the intro.
What do you mean ist
the other part of the intelligentsia who are
not CEO robots? What
do you have in mind there?
nonpositivism: Franz, I enjoyed your introduction.
There's just one
thing missing, one thing I'd like to develop
more: How/why is it
that some individuals (such as us and other
"free thinkers") escape
the directives of the debased Groupthink that
your describe? If we
can identify these factors, we might have a
mechanism for tilting the balance in favor of true Education rather than monotonic
Mind
Control.
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, perhaps a question.
Are the ruling elites
just somehow located on the other extreme of
the same spectrum
of the wretched of the earth? Can we measure,
parting from the
ignorance, alienation, physical and mental
destruction of the
wretched of the earth, the opposite degree
on the side of the ruling elites? - And, connecting up with Scotts question,
why and how
does it happen, that some actually do stick
their noses out of the
cage and start to act, think and excel on their
own account?
juttafranz: Now, Jutta, please try to answer Scott's question.
juttafranz: And, Scott, please take a try at Jutta's question.
juttafranz: Meanwhile, I light my fire, my cigarette.
juttafranz: Stella & Carl, please smile!
missnaranjahit: Franz there is a question left.
carlzim: The ruling elites are people who take advantage of luck and inheritance and take advantage of the fear of risk & responsibility of common folk.
jutta_schmitt2002: What seems to be clear
however is, that "conscientization" is only possible amongst those, who are
already
in the
same orbit - and then I don't know, if we can
talk about
"conscientization" anymore. - I like to use
the metapher of the
"lagoons of
society" with regard to an approximation to
Scott's answer.
nonpositivism: Hmm...I gave a talk on this
3 years ago at a Seminar
in Tampa. I can summarize the answer in one
word: Education.
Sound paradoxical? If you want me to elaborate
I will be glad to.
missnaranjahit: Scott go ahead!
carlzim: Please elaborate, Scott.
jutta_schmitt2002: Education for whom,
why and in what sense,
Scott? Cui bono, as they say in Latin.
nonpositivism: Ok.......
jutta_schmitt2002: Stella, perhaps a word
on education from you?
What do you think is today's education worth
in German public
universities? The seminars that deal with problems
concerning
society and politics and history - do they
approximate the real
problems? Is there any connection left between
what is said and discussed in the seminars, and what is happening on a global
scale?
juttafranz: Scott, concerning the "missing
link", why can some
"escape from Alcatraz"? It just depends, Scott,
how deep some have
slipped into the sewerage system, swallowing
it hook, sinker, bait
and shark, how deep, for various reasons, what
modus vivendi,
modus operandi, how, and as what they are integrated
into the
production process, etc. Also, how, some have
remained on the
periphery of all these, perhaps isolated in
some natural corner of the globe, have received healthy food in their youth,
had
non-authoritarian, loving parents, lived at
a certain "revolutionary"
time, had certain enlightened teachers, etc.
carlzim: I think we've resisted brainwashing
due mainly by exposure
to free thinking extended families at home
in early childhood, and
learning how to see through phony intellectuals
selling their egos in school.
jutta_schmitt2002: That is certainly a
charming description of your
own, formidable character as a free thinker,
Carl.
nonpositivism: The ages up till the teens
are critical. If home, peers, private reading and formal schooling converge
in a way that
encourages children to retain their innate
creativity, motivation and curiosity, we would raise generations of children
that have a
maturity, an openness to ideas and education
which transcend the industrial army. As your answer above demonstrates, you
agree
with me substantially. It's no mystery.
nonpositivism: Which is why gigantic efforts
consciously accelerate
the tendency of mass education toward conformity,
discipline, etc.
at the expense of independent thinking, creativity
and motivation. All cultures have a vested interest in stability, but the
stakes are
higher now and the investment in the Machinery
of Education -
Education as Training for an Obedient Producing
and Consuming
Army is something left less and less to chance.
Here's something
funny but true:
missnaranjahit: Firstly Jutta: yes, there
is a connection, for the
sake of stabiliazing the system. Secondly :
no there is no connection
in
the sense that the discussion of problems is
not for solving the
problems.
jutta_schmitt2002: But home, peers, formal
schooling and formal
leisure time spending all add up to the utter
contrary, to the
formation of the standardized, hollow, tame
customer, ready to
swallow whatever has to be shuffled down his/her
throat, of course.
nonpositivism: The easiest way to liberate
the creativity and
intellect for millions would be for them to
turn off their Televisions
for one
year and read a book/month instead. A book
which contains at least
some "Master Ideas" is best, but almost any
book builds a more
imaginative person than "the tube".
jutta_schmitt2002: That is a proper doublefold
perspective, Stella. Stabilizing the system by creating myths about it, and
keeping the
students from becoming critics by accepting
and discussing the
myths.
nonpositivism: Currently the average American
spends 8 years (that's right, 24 hours x 7 days x 365 days/year) in front
of TV in his
lifetime, consuming gigantic amounts of meaningless,
hypnotic
imagery, advertisting and "infotainment". It's
also true that most
Americans do not read A SINGLE BOOK past the
age of 18.
juttafranz: (J)utta, certainly! The two
extremes form the reality of the superstructure of any mode of production.
Concerning, the
"extraterrestrial" ones, the aliens that were
not so severely affected
by "newspeak", I can just remark that there
are more "creatures"
on earth and in heaven than those that are
generally dreamt of in
global "equality" and mental equalization.
They are simply "different"
Scott & Jutta. There are and exist on this
planet much more than
many could see, could fathom -- we are and
exist and transcend
here also.
juttafranz: Sorry, Jutta, not Utta or Utah!
jutta_schmitt2002: No problem, Fraz.
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, in answer to
your remarks above: ditto!
Which brings us back to the former observation,
that education in
the first place is meant to form each and everybody
according to
their function in the production process -
be it "active" (physica and
intellectual labour), be it "passive" (the
consumer).
juttafranz: Well, Scott, how would you define "most" Americans in a mental, thinking way?
nonpositivism: Americans are profoundly
anti-intellectual. Generally technology, engineering, infotaintment and leisure-time
oriented.
This pertains to all races, all classes.
juttafranz: And, in anticipation of your
answer, can you now see, why most Americans do not have the foggiest idea
what their
government is doing, yet, they are patriots,
proud to be "Americans".
nonpositivism: Anti-intellectualism (see
Richard Hofstadter's classic) was always ingrained here, but since the 80's
[Reagan's
Presidency was a watershed] it has accelerated
enormously.
Ignorance Is Strength.
juttafranz: What happens, Scott, when you
are "profoundly anti-intellectual", when your thinking and thought powers
collapse?
What
is left of you?
jutta_schmitt2002: This is how it works
in America, in Europe, in
Japan, elsewhere. Conformity with the system
lasts as long as the
economic situation is more or less stable;
if, for some reason
(economic recessions and subsequent wars),
the economic basis
tumbles, the standard consumer mind does not
dispose of any critical tools to analyse, what is going on, let alone to ask
questions.
Most just happily continue consuming the ideas
of the ruling elites.
juttafranz: What is still "American" about you, in this case?
juttafranz: Or is that per definitionem "American"?
missnaranjahit: Scott I fear if you shut
down the televisions for
only one day, the people will get competely
crazy! They will not be
able to read a complete sentence anyway, rather
understand what the content is to exaggerate a little bit. - reading back.
nonpositivism: Both conservatives and liberals
accept that this generation of Americans is culturally less literate than
the one
before,
and so on. Some like to call it "dumbing down".
But all concede
the basic reality. Our educational system fails
all (even in its
nominal
purposes at training in basic Industrial-functional-literacy)
except
the upper decile.
juttafranz: Yes, Ignorance is Strength, is Power, is Murdering Power, Genocidal Strength!
carlzim: Intellectualized racism! Read
about the history of the
white race by people who think such a thing
exists:
March of the Titans A History of the White
Race
http://www.white-history.com/
nonpositivism: Stella, you are right. Americans
are severely addicted. When there are even short-term power black-outs and
cable
TV service is disrupted, Americans need a lot
of counseling and visits to the Psychiatrist. This is indeed what happened
after
Hurricane Andrew in Florida in 1992. Take this
for what it's worth
..........
carlzim: The book is full of errors including
denying the WW2
Holocaust. It claims that Indo-Europeans fled
the Black Sea Flood of
5600 BC. Actually, it was the Nostratics that
fled the flood.
Indo-European didn't even exist yet. Indo-European
began as a dialect
of Nostratic and probably became a language
around 4500-4000 BC.
nonpositivism: A few years ago "Internet
Addiction" was cited as the
4th leading cause of Divorce in the United
States!
juttafranz: Well, Scott, literally they
can read and write, operate a PC, they are literate, but what about their
thinking, their differentia
specifica to anything else?
jutta_schmitt2002: Stella, you picture
a pretty realistic scenario.
Above all, Television and 24h a day consuming
is a way of not only
distracting people, but literally let them
"miss their very own lives",
so to speak. Take any of these entertainments
away from them,
and they will either come to a complete standstill,
get depressions,
or become aggressive and start beating each
other up. - A very
favourable and carefully fostered potential
in times of impending war,
by the way.
carlzim: Closely related to Finnish, although
the people often are very blond. The book refers to he Turks and Spanish Moors
as
non-Whites. Actually, there were many Nordics
among the Turkish
ruling class and janissaries (soldiers), and
Islamic Civilization in
Spain was created by Nordic Berbers and blond
slaves from Central
and Eastern Europe called Saqalibah (Arabic
for Sklav, or Slav).
missnaranjahit: (Sorry with "They" I do not only mean "Americans", looking here around.... I think it is a global tendency.)
nonpositivism: Franz, there is no Thinking
in the sense you and I use
the term. These are 2 dimensional "operators"
- just for
Economics and Warfare. In some ways this represents
a return to the general mass illiteracy of the Middle Ages.
missnaranjahit: Interesting example anyway Scott.
carlzim: The book calls the Estonians Indo-Europeans
while Estonian
is an Uralic language So the concept of race-white,
black, etc.
is bullscheisse. We're all products of "integration
under the bed
sheet."
Some racist Americans believe this book's BS.
nonpositivism: Jutta, indeed you are right,
as is Stella. Ted
Kaczsynski (aka "The Unabomber") wrote about
this in his infamous
Manifesto. One can debate his sanity, but many
astute commentators
here had the courage to agree with him - Michael
Mello
included. (For those who want to check out
his book, I can give you
more detail).
juttafranz: In that case, we need not cry
over the coming demise of American homo sapiens sapiens, it is already TV-ized,
PC-ized,
robotized, mentally-cloned, zombi-ized. We
must be another
"generation" of species on the planet, very
un-American, Un-European,
etc.
carlzim: Intellectualized racism in USA.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, racism is a vital
diversion tool in times
of crisis, when entertainment is expensive
or entirely disrupted, and
people's aggressions, frustrations and depressions
become manifest. They have to turn to a scapegoat, and you have the well-known
spiral of "the foreigners", the non-whites,
non-Americans,
non-Europeans who "take our working places
away", etc. etc.
juttafranz: Jutta & Carl, what is really the material and "spiritual" essence of "racism". What is it really? How does it exist?
carlzim: Was it a coincidence that Ted
Cazsynski (Unibomber) was a Polish American? So was the guy who blew up electric
power
stations in 1950's.
nonpositivism: Jutta, yes but as we've
discussed before this could
not work unless Humanity can some built-in
territorialities,
tribalisms and programmed defenses against
"outsiders".
juttafranz: Is it formal-logical? Is it
separating the wheat from the
chaff? A from Non-A, white from black, rich
from poor? And why?
And how does it enter words and language, how
is it reproduced in
the minds of billions?
jutta_schmitt2002: There is, however, a
destabilizing element
entering the scenario: The standard customer
mentality is getting
ever
hollower, and people's brains tend to ressemble
hollow vases, that passively receive just about ANYTHING you pour in there.
In the
end, they are just like automats, they "act"
and "think" as their
favourite movie stars, they are receptible
to any "message" given to
them via TV or video games, and in the end,
they "fulfill their
mission" and go onto a shooting rampage amongst
their school mates,
teachers, colleagues, and so on.
nonpositivism: In times of crisis, it is
unfortunately all too easy to
stir up these negative passions because they
are indeed part of who
we are.
juttafranz: Does it eliminate contradictions,
relations, thinking and thought, creating one-track minds, nazi monsters,
fascist dragons,
terrorist CIA-creatures?
jutta_schmitt2002: If you, Scott, for some
reason have been an
outsider all your life, you may just develop
some "built-in tribalism"
against insiders.
carlzim: I don't think there's a spiritual
essence of racism. The
material essence is cheap labor.
nonpositivism: Carl, disagree with you
there. See dialogues between Margaret Mead and James Baldwin for more insight
into my
perspective.
juttafranz: Carl, the Nubians were near
to Egypt, to the Mideast,
why do they not play any important role in
the Old Testament? Why
did they hit off the Black Nose of the Sphinx,
was it perhaps too
Nubian, too flat?
carlzim: In the 1950's a teenager, the
police questioned me as a
Polish KGB agent due to my physical appearance.
juttafranz: Why do Africans not play a
central spiritual part in
Western culture and tradition, in poems, fairy
tales -- of course, there
are exceptions, Othello! But, for that, you
have to be "rich", a
Merchant of Venice!
carlzim: Yep, Franz.
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, you coined an
excellent term here: the one track mind - I add, the fast and one track mind!
The
standardized customer mind knows no contradiction
in our sense,
only formal logics, as his/her brains wants
to keep things simple, in
terms of the good guys or the bad guys, right
or wrong. Beyond that,
the standardized consumer mind gets confused.
juttafranz: Or some Prince, who knows, of Denmark!
carlzim: Scott, I'm familar with the propsed
ideas on spiritual basis
of racism. I disagree with them.
nonpositivism: Jutta, even with the most
dumbed-down person you
know that is not true. People perceive in continuities,
not discrete bits/bytes. Of course, there's no telling how blurred those
continuities can get....
juttafranz: Back again, my nose was blown off by Yahoo!
nonpositivism: Carl, I'll be more specific
than that. I think tribalism - including selective acceptance or rejection
of those groups who
appear different (in skin color, in language,
in morphology, etc.) is genetic.
carlzim: Hi, Franz.
juttafranz: Do you read us again, Yahoo
was trying some "sabotage
acts"/
missnaranjahit: Franz, the central spiritual
part of the Africans in my education was the fary tale "Zehn kleine Negerlein"
- Jutta I think
you know that picture-book. Education at it's
"best".
juttafranz: OK!
carlzim: OK, Scott. Makes sense.
juttafranz: Jutta is connecting.
missnaranjahit: I read you Franz.
juttafranz: Yes, Stella, Ten Little Niggers,
Agatha Christie converted
them into "Indians".
carlzim: I read you, Franz.
nonpositivism: Is everyone back online?
Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has joined the conference.
missnaranjahit: Jutta welcome back!
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks, Stella.
nonpositivism: Is everyone back online? raise your hand if you're in class!
jutta_schmitt2002: !
carlzim: Franz, in 1950's, police questioned me because I'm too white (look Polish). Strange racism (LOL)
juttafranz: Also, in your favourite German
"Struwwelpeter", Stella, it says, the nigger is not to be blamed that he is
black, he can't do
anything about it, as Scott says, it's genetic,
hence he is biologically damned to genetic inferiority!
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl
missnaranjahit: Struwwelpeter - a book
I never liked. You recall
strange things to my mind Franz ...
juttafranz: Furthermore, Voltaire and Montesquieu
are more explicit
about this biological damnedness, a nigger
is of another dog
pedigree, he has no soul, God could not have
placed a soul into such
a dirty, black, stinking body, furthermore,
spiritually, this thing
has no mind, not even to be controlled, there
is nothing in that
brainbox that could be used for the use or
the abuse of thinking and
thought, for philosophy. Well, that's racism
at its worst!
jutta_schmitt2002: Perhaps I have a genetical
defect. I never
displayed tribalist behaviour against differently
appearing
individuals /
groups. Or perhaps it was the influence of
Daniel Cohn Bendits multicultural society in my Frankfurt days that made me
quite an
"internationalist" / "interethnicist" ?
jutta_schmitt2002: For Stella: "Konrad,
sprach die Frau Mama / Ich
geh aus und Du bleibst da.
juttafranz: That's how Western, Christian,
Civilized Racism
newspeaks, perfectly in the Voice of America,
that is, in the Voice of
Bush!
missnaranjahit: noooooooooo Jutta fürchterlich!!!!!!!!
nonpositivism: Jutta, in cases of interracial
marriage the sons and daughters go through stages of recognition/identification/individuation
which prove the phenomenon I described above.
jutta_schmitt2002: Löffel, Gabel,
Scher und Licht / Sind für kleine
Kinder nicht."
missnaranjahit: Yes that quote is out of this book too....
nonpositivism: That does not mean that
the recognition
(differentiation) must degenerate into antipathy
or ideological
racism. But if
often does.
carlzim: Vol-are and monte-screw? French-Yeccch) (LOL)
jutta_schmitt2002: Do they do so in a given,
social environment,
Scott? Can you please elaborate a little further?
jutta_schmitt2002: Your French IS pardoned, Carl.
carlzim: Thanks, Jutta.
nonpositivism: It would take too long here,
Jutta. Some things do
not lend themselves well to this format. But
there are
books/documents I can refer you to after this
chat.
juttafranz: Racism destroys Thinking and
Thought, generates "Identification" with "A", with the Fuehrer, with the
"Lider Maximo",
patriotically with the Herrenvolk (We ...),
with the Patria, with the
Home Land.
nonpositivism: Franz, if that's the case
why did Karl Marx come up
with much Revolutionary Thinking, Economics
and Politics? He
despised "niggers", was a strong racist by
any definition, yet I'm
sure you would not say his Thinking was "destroyed".
missnaranjahit: *be right back*
jutta_schmitt2002: Okay, Stella.
juttafranz: Racism is not just an accident,
a social accident, some intellectual mischief, no, it is inherent in formal
logics, in division of
labour, in the poor and rich circus, in the
white and black, Rembrandtesque painting of Globalization, it is Global Partition
Magic, it is the ideological reflex, reflection of the World Market.
nonpositivism: Franz, that still does not
answer my questions about
Marx!
carlzim: Scott, Marx thought fricans were subhumans, and they would serve Communist Europe.
carlzim: Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin didn't give a damn about Africa.
missnaranjahit: back.
carlzim: Stalin opposed Mao Tse Tung.
carlzim: Hi, Stella.
carlzim: Ho Chi Minh joined the French Communist Party.
nonpositivism: Franz, don't tell me my
question about the awkward contradictions in Marx's temperament and theory
has left you
speechless!
juttafranz: Marx is a product of his "time",
of the world of de
Gobineau. He affirmed Labour, the labouring
classes, and therewith
the
"divisions" of Labour, its Racism. He was even
a capitalist, a bourgeois-radical capitalist that wanted to continue the
French
Revolution, he spoke about the "Third World"
as barbarian and semi-barbarian countries, in the very Communist Manifesto.
But this
is nothing strange, so did so may other beloved
classic writers;
Voltaire, Montesquieu, Hegel, Linne, etc. ---
the man was in "good"
company, that's it, Scott.
carlzim: Agreed, Franz.
jutta_schmitt2002: In answer to Scott's
question, the racist Marx was perfectly an expression of his times, of the
established world
market, of the declaration of inferiority of
the peoples on the
discovered and colonized continents. European
superiority - you
would
find this attitude in many a thinker and philosopher
of those times. Perhaps this racist attitude did "destroy" Marx' thinking
to a
degree, where he supposed that all the "barbaric
countries" - today's
so called Third World Countries - would have
to go through the
maturation process and become "civilized" by
capitalism first, before they would enter the world historic stage.
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has left the conference.
nonpositivism: man overboard!
nonpositivism: get him back, get him back!
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: Welcome back, Carl.
carlzim: Hi, folks. Thanks, Franz.
carlzim: Yahoo=Polish
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott?!
jutta_schmitt2002: First Carl, now Scott.
juttafranz: It seems to me juttafranz or
franzjutta thinks perfectly
alike!!
Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has joined the conference.
carlzim: Franz, please invite Scott
jutta_schmitt2002: Wanna play hide and seek, guys?
nonpositivism: Thanks......Franz, please
repost your answer to my
earlier query.
carlzim: Hi, Scott.
juttafranz: Scott, it seems to me juttafranz
or franzjutta thinks
perfectly alike!! Our replies to you are nearly
identical.
jutta_schmitt2002: Did you get our simultaneous reply, Scott?
missnaranjahit: Folks, as I have to prepare
something for tomorrow,
some typing-job, which I nearly forgot, I have
to retire now, I'll
leave the window open for saving the chat.
nonpositivism: [that's assuming you did reply! maybe you're still speechless!]
nonpositivism: Stella, bye....we shall miss you! Thanks for being here.
jutta_schmitt2002: Stella, I'm always sorry to see you leave!!!
carlzim: The only Blacks with leadership
in a major Communist
Party was in USA oin 1930's...
missnaranjahit: Bye!
juttafranz: Bye! Stella!
nonpositivism: No, Jutta I am afraid I did not.
jutta_schmitt2002: Hang on, Scott.
juttafranz: Scott, Jutta will repost our replies.
jutta_schmitt2002:
juttafranz: Marx is a product of his "time",
of the world of de
Gobineau. He affirmed Labour, the labouring
classes, and therewith
the "divisions" of Labour, its Racism. He was
even a capitalist, a bourgeois-radical capitalist that wanted to continue
the French
Revolution, he spoke about the "Third World"
as barbarian and semi-barbarian countries, in the very Communist Manifesto.
But this
is nothing strange, so did so may other beloved
classic writers;
Voltaire, Montesquieu, Hegel, Linne, etc. ---
the man was in "good"
company, that's it, Scott.
carlzim: Henry Winston, Paul Robeson, Herbert Apthekar.
jutta_schmitt2002:
jutta_schmitt2002: In answer to Scott's question,
the racist Marx
was perfectly an expression of his times, of
the established world
market, of the declaration of inferiority of
the peoples on the
discovered and colonized continents. European
superiority - you would
find this attitude in many a thinker and philosopherr
of those times. Perhaps this racist attitude did "destroy" Marx' thinking
to a
degree, where he supposed that all the "barbaric
countries" - today's
so called Third World Countries - would have
to go through the
maturation process and become "civilized" by
capitalism first, before they would enter the world historic stage.
carlzim: The only Blacks with leadership
in a major Communist Party
was in USA in 1930's...
carlzim: Bye, Stella.
juttafranz: Carl, it was similar in South
Africa. So, Scott, there are
our replies again: in Bias' style!
nonpositivism: Ok, let me read back.
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz - doppelt hält
besser - one message two
voices?
nonpositivism: OK, Jutta. Thanks. I understand
your interpretation
of Herr Marx.
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has declined
to join and sent: Thanks,
but no thanks.
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has left the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl overboard.
nonpositivism: He probably had an extra
invitation to which he
closed a window. Fatal flaw in Yahoo.
nonpositivism: Invite once and only once - who will volunteer?
jutta_schmitt2002: I see you're improving
your German, Scott. I
did invite Carl already.
carlzim: Hi, folks. Thanks.
jutta_schmitt2002: Hi Carl. Yahoo is getting rather instable.
juttafranz: Scott, know your Shakespeare,
your Marx, your
Juttafranz!!!
nonpositivism: Carl is not here, Jutta...you
are talking to a ghost
thread.
jutta_schmitt2002: Folks, but can we finally
resume the question that Scott has posed at the beginning? How comes, how
does it
happen, that there are still some brains left
that can escape the
global standardization machine and act, think,
and excel all of, by and
for themselves?
jutta_schmitt2002: carlzim: Hi, folks. Thanks.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl's Shadow.
nonpositivism: Yes, Jutta I would like
to return to that. I'm convinced
the key is preserving and nurturing the childlike
creative
impulses we are born with. Mass industrial
education is "the enemy".
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, art thou shadow,
art thou real? / Wouldst
thine identity reveal?!
juttafranz: Carl, where are you "ghosting" around?
jutta_schmitt2002: Hold on for a moment please, Scott. Let's try to materialize Carl.
carlzim: "On language" from a forum:
"Language:
More than mere tool,
Living, fluid
Words change with use
Within a single lifetime.
If that were not the case,
In a generation,
Possibly two,
We wouldn't give
Meaning
A second thought.
And yet, we resist change.
We argue about which standards
Ought to prevail.
The question of whether a way
Of expression is good or bad
Is mainly a matter
Of taste and judgment.
Or discernment of someone
With nerve and the daring
To proffer an opinion."
"On language" from a forum:
"Language:
More than mere tool,
Living, fluid
Words change with use
Within a single lifetime.
If that were not the case,
In a generation,
Possibly two,
We wouldn't give
Meaning
A second thought.
And yet, we resist change.
We argue about.
jutta_schmitt2002: There.
carlzim: Jutta, what do you mean by Shadow?
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has declined
to join and sent: Thanks,
but no thanks.
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has left the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, I saw you enter
the chat room and greeted
you. Scott was convinced, that you had not
yet entered, and thus
I was talking to a "ghost thread" - something
already passéé.
jutta_schmitt2002: I ask you again: Are
you with us in this
conference? Or am I talking to your shadow?
juttafranz: Well, if you go against official
mass education, Scott,
against the Ministry of Education, against
the job that Plato gave to
the Ship of State, trying to educate masses
of people outside of the official educational institutions, whether schools
or Internet
Universities, you would surely head for a Terrorist
Nobel Peace Prize, somebody would look for you "Dead and/or Alive"!
jutta_schmitt2002: *I give up*
nonpositivism: When children's confidence
to think question, query,
and think independently is sustained....particularly
up through the
age of 12, a human being grows up who is much
more receptive to
lifelong mult-dimensional growth and paradigm
shifts. This
generally amounts to teaching Philosophy to
children, or at least
teaching in a more "negative" [Eastern] than
positive style which we
have here. Socratic or Lateral Thinking, etc.
This is quite well
known and works in limited situations. But
there is great aversion to
trying this on a massive basis, for reasons
I can elaborate further.
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.
carlzim: Thanks.
nonpositivism: I will repost for Carl's
benefit and encourage your comments:
nonpositivism: When children's confidence to
think question, query,
and think independently is sustained....particularly
up through the
age of 12, a human being grows up who is much
more receptive to
lifelong mult-dimensional growth and paradigm
shifts. This
generally amounts to teaching Philosophy to
children, or at least
teaching in a more "negative" [Eastern] than
positive style which we
have here. Socratic or Lateral Thinking, etc.
This is quite well known
and works in limited situations. But there
is great aversion to
trying this on a massive basis, for reasons
I can elaborate further.
jutta_schmitt2002: Welcome, Carl. Scott,
this leaves us with the few "lagoons of society", that are drying up slowly
but surely. On a
mass basis and as you said, this kind of education
would never be allowed, never be fostered, on the contrary. Critical thinking,
thinking in the first place is unwanted, as
it poses a danger to the
very system.
juttafranz: Agreed, Scott. But how will
you implement this in the
Global Fascist State? How would you resist
the zillions of
disinformative data, the perversions and horror
scenes around you.
How would a young mind resist these? And, if
it is separated,
how will s(he) fight outside in a savage world?
carlzim: Agreed, Scott. That's why the spoiled child is disadvantaged.
nonpositivism: Jutta/Franz: As Hamlet says,
"Ay, there's the Rub".
I can give you some suggestions to evade the
Mass Industrial
Programming and counter it with something substantive.
Even if only
5% of the Population succeed in this endeavor,
the results will
be revolutionary:
juttafranz: Better, Scott, get a bin Laden
"Flying Carpet", put your
boys on it, and off you go to the Magellan
Clouds, starting from
scratch, as Carl would say!
juttafranz: Scott, there's nothing more
revolutionary than Bill Gates
& Co. Nothing more revolutionary than the
world that gives such
revolutionary education.
jutta_schmitt2002: And something to seriously
take into account: Any child in the USA / Europe, who has had the luck to
enjoy a
kind of education you are hinting at, say,
by its own parents, would display a livelier behaviour than any of its classmates
in the official
school system and be diagnosed with a "hyperactivity
syndrome" or something like that. The pills this child would get shuffled
down
its throat would do away with all the former,
genuine parental
education effort.
juttafranz: What you and the kids need is emancipatory education.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, sorry - what did
you mean by your statement above - the spoilt child is disadvantaged? Spoilt
in what
sense?
nonpositivism: Parental - Child. Much more
reading. Shift religious emphasis to Reading, Doing, Questioning rather than
Obedience.
Turn off the TV, Radio. Teach in small groups
- never more than 1:12 Teacher/Student Ratio. Balance the Drills with considerably
more open self-selecting Projects. Encourage
international travel wherever possible. Include books in private if not public
curriculum
that develop master ideas, such as the "Classics"
which have been
lost from most USA Public Education for example.
Beef up the
Art and Music components of early education.
That's just for starters.
juttafranz: To learn to act, to think, to excel a new, differently, a complete not re- but neo-naissance.
juttafranz: In the current socialization
process, in its education, you
will go nowhere, Scott.
juttafranz: And, children are never: like father, like son!
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, are you still here?
nonpositivism: A little knowledge is dangerous,
as they say. IN fact,
what Andy Grove and Bill Gates keep blabbering
about - "A
computer on every child's desk" is a front
for Class and Information Warfare against all but the super-rich and the Technology
Elites.
It will further commercialize childhood and
dumb-down the classroom. Reading, reading, reading. There is such a huge,
obvious
direct correlation between the amount of Independent
Reading a child does and his Intellectual Creativity, Imagination and
Motivation.
nonpositivism: Well, Franz....if you mean
to say that partial success cannot be achieved even with the obstacles we
have now, if some
of the suggestions I listed were implemented,
I disagree.
nonpositivism: The Internet is a double-edged
sword. In certain
circles it is increasing independent thought,
consumer choice and
expertise - independent sourcing of information.
But for most it is
merely accelerating homogenization and dumbing
down.
juttafranz: Knowledge is Power, of the
Powerful Ruling Class. If you
get a little knowledge about its Power, it
gets furious, and you
become dangerous, thereafter your life is in
danger, Scott.
juttafranz: This is why a little real knowledge is dangerous!
nonpositivism: Franz, actually it's more
passive than you think. It's
not well-prepared fo handle an Educational
Revolution from the
bottom-up. Just like in old Soviet Russia,
you would be surprised how easy it can be to dismantle the old Elitist structures
if these
methods are applied at different levels over
time - even within a few decades. However, I don't see enough energy from
the
bottom-up to make this happen right now. People
are still doped up
on 30 hours/week of Infotainment and (at least
in North
America) relatively comfortable material existence.
jutta_schmitt2002: Technologized Class
and Information Warfare,
starts indeed at each and every child's desk
- at least of those
children in the "metropoles", building and
training their receptibility,
and probably nothing else. About the children
in the Third World,
I don't know. I also thought about them as
you were proposing your certainly interesting and valid suggestions, Scott.
- How many
parents on the globe are able to provide their
children with this kind
of thinking tools? Probably in the very USA,
there are not too
many of them. And not all of those, who would
have the economic
ability, have the mental and character-related
capability, too.
juttafranz: Imagine if you acquire some
real, true knowledge about
the Twin Towers fait accompli, and want to
tell it to the world,
then, you'll become more dangerous than bin
Laden, in American Democracy, you would be a dead man, Scott.
nonpositivism: Jutta, I agree with you.
I would love to chat more but
work and related responsibilites are calling....please
step
forward, Franz, Jutta and Carl if you have
any dramatic final
comments for me before I log off this Conference!
juttafranz: Scott, I must go and finish my dinner too.
juttafranz: Let's end the enjoyment here today.
jutta_schmitt2002: Don't let work interfere with your creativity, Scott.
juttafranz: Itwas a real, "great' pleasure to chat with you all!!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, are you still there??
juttafranz: Bye, Scott!! Bye, Jutta. Bye, Shadow - Carl!!!
jutta_schmitt2002: For Scott: I start getting
worried if you begin to
agree with me so often.
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz! Have you seen Carl?
nonpositivism: Carl is in The Twilight
Zone, between Yahoo shadow
and substance. From the terrestrial plane,
Carl...I bid thee good
afternoon and thanks. To Franz and Jutta, thanks
very much to you as well! Stay in touch............. A L O H A!
Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has left the conference.
juttafranz: Scott, what is more dramatic
than this: Imagine if you
acquire some real, true knowledge about the
Twin Towers fait
accompli, and want to tell it to the world,
then, you'll become more dangerous than bin Laden, in American Democracy,
you would
be a dead man, Scott.
juttafranz: Bye, all!
carlzim: Bye, Folks. A pleasure.
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye Franz, bye Carl, bye Scott.
juttafranz: Bye to Fran, Carl!!!
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has left the conference.
Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has left the conference.
juttafranz: Carl, it was a pleasure, an
excellent chat, as always!
Thanks for accompanying us, and yourself, as
always.
juttafranz: Bye, Carl.
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